Fighting fake news w/ Science Sam
Not sure what to do with all the COVID-conspiracy theories flying around? Finding yourself arguing on social media while your blood pressure rises and your friend/follower count drops?!?! Um, I FEEL YA. So I called up my dear friend and legit science super-star, Dr. Samantha Yammine (aka Science Sam), to break down exactly why #fakenews spreads so easily and what we can do to constructively and compassionately champion facts based in real math and science - something we have the power and responsibility to fight for.
SHOW NOTES
A Full transcript of this episode is available below the podcast app icons!
Dr. Yammine talks about an amazing Tara Haelle article called “Why It’s Important to Push Back on ‘Plandemic’” and you can find that here. I’ve read it and can vouch for the fact that not only is it a great article, but it’s a quick and easy read - a good starting point for sharing with friends who are open to actual discussion! And like, if they’re not…may wanna reconsider that friendship ugh awks, I know.
We talked about Bryan Adams & his whack COVID tweet and like guys, I think we over here in Canada are just taking this real hard because like…he’s a Canadian ICON. Like where was his press person?! Kind of sad the tweet got deleted because the responses were EPIC tbh.
We talked about Jay-z. Obviously. The epic quote Sam mentions is from his song Izzo (H.O.V.A), and goes a lil something like:
he who does not feel me
Is not real to me, therefore he doesn't exist
So poof, Vamoose, son of a bitchScience Sam talks about Bystander Effect, learn more about that here!
Sam & I gushed over how much we love anything written by Dr. Ed Yong - he continues to be one of the most concise-in-complexity, well-researched, and easy-to-understand voices throughout this pandemic. This is my FAVE article by him because yes, it’s about math, but he breaks it down in a way that’s super accessible and I think reading it is a good step toward building the confidence YOU ALL DESERVE around math IRL RIGHT NOW!
Women have a tough time getting taken seriously in the world of math & science, and it sucks extra when women are brought down…by other women! Well, that’s exactly what happened to Sam a couple of years ago, as she faced criticism for using instagram to promote science awareness (which is just whack if you ask me!). You know what I think: we NEED to be using popular platforms to talk about math & science if we want to reach people where they ARE instead of where we think they SHOULD be. I know that Science Sam is inspiring us to ALL look at math & science in a shiny, new, understandable light and breaking stereotypes of what it means to be good at math, what it means to be a scientist, and what it means to be smart. GO SAM GO!
MORE FROM DR. SAMANTHA YAMMINE
Dr. Samantha Yammine, PhD is a Neuroscientist and Science Communicator better known as Science Sam. She got her PhD from the University of Toronto studying how stem cells build & maintain the brain, and went on to found Science Sam Media after graduating. She shares anything science, anywhere and everywhere — from the busy streets of Toronto to YouTube and Netflix — though right now her main beat is sharing factual information about COVID-19 on Instagram @science.sam. Also, I highly recommend checking out her dope Youtube channel where she’s been posting really cool vids about stuff like the science of face masks, as well as a series of COVID #mythbusters!
SUPPORT MATH THERAPY + GET IN TOUCH
Leave ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ at Apple Podcasts // Subscribe on your fave podcast app // Get in touch at all socials at @themathguru or vanessa@themathguru.ca
SHOW CREDITS
Hosted by: Vanessa Vakharia
Produced by: Sabina Wex
Edited by: David Kochberg
Logo by: Scott Wise
Theme music: WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Vanessa Vakharia: Hey guys and welcome to another bonus episode of MATH THERAPY! Season 2 is starting in THREE WEEKS, but until then, I thought I would come at you with a little minisode starring a legit COVID celeb...okay that sounds weird but seriously, my guest today is an actual insta influencer but like, for SCIENCE, and she has been KILLING it with her fresh takes on COVID over the past two months! Dr. Samantha Yammine is a Neuroscientist and Science Communicator better known as Science Sam. She got her PhD from the University of Toronto and went on to found Science Sam Media after graduating - and guys, I’m lowkey obsessed with her, she’s so fucking cool! You know me, I really think that one of the KEYS to making math and science accessible to EVERYONE is like, using platforms normal people use - like netflix, youtube, social media! And that’s what she does! You know, this podcast is all about math trauma and how shit math experiences leave so many of us feeling a lack of confidence when it comes to numbers and scientific language, and I have been feeling that SO HARD during this pandemic. I don’t know about you guys, but I have been SO upset about all of the fake news science conspiracy nonsense that the internet has been like, spewing on us, and I’m most upset about the fact that it’s like, all designed to manipulate those of us who aren’t comfortable with math and science to begin with. THAT’S what gives these conspiracy fiends POWER, and I’ve had ENOUGH. So, that’s why I’ve brought Science Sam in - I’ve called in the big guns because it’s time to break this down in a way we can all ACTUALLY understand! So end rant, cue Science Sam! Hi Sam - welcome to the podcast!
Dr. Samantha Yammine aka Science Sam: Hi Vanessa! Thank you so much for having me and for that glowing introduction - I’m just going to play that for myself everyday for a little boost thank you!
V: (laughing) It's so true! Okay so I think the first thing I was going to just ask you to talk about because I bet a lot of people don't know - like, you call yourself a “science communicator”. Like, what is that and what do you do?
S: Yes “science communicator” is a really umbrella word for a lot of different jobs, but what I do specifically is I tell stories about science! I try to share the fascinating science that surrounds us all the time. Right now I've been focused on covid-19 but usually it's just me talking about, like what's inside all the cells in your body, or why is the sky blue? Why do the leaves change colour? Will collagen supplements change my skin? Just science that’s around us all the time that we may not even realize, and as a science communicator it's my job to tell those stories and pull people into conversations about science - not just talking at people because that's really boring and it’s not helpful, but having conversations with people about things that are really cool and interesting and applicable to their life related to science.
V: I love that, that’s such a cool description and obviously you know I'm a huge Instagram fan of yours and I think it's so cool. Like I remember this Valentine's Day post you did where you were actually talking about love and the heart and dopamine, and all of my students thought it was really really cool and most of them profess to hate science, so good job!
So I have a random question I guess, like why … why don't most scientists communicate the way you do? Like I know you can't speak for everyone but why is it so rare to find someone like you that can actually speak about scientific concepts in a way that most people understand?
S: It’s a really good question, and there’s no simple answer. But part of it is that when I was doing research full-time as part of my PhD, you don't really have the training, nor necessarily the time, because you're collecting data all the time, you’re doing these long days in the lab, you're analyzing the data, and then you're trying to move quickly to publish it and get it out to your colleagues and then move on to the next thing. You’re always trying to keep up with the world, and keeping up with the world scientifically is really hard, and so there's not really a lot of time, and there's a lot of time pressure on you to get your research out to your colleagues and to the scientific community. But there’s not always time to stop and put it down into words that make it accessible, which is an issue, and that's a problem that needs to be fixed. There should be time that should be deemed part of the scientific process!
Many people will say this, and these are not my words, but science is not done until it is properly communicated. That is part of the scientific process. If you're finding something that matters, you need to share it and then it needs to be evaluated, understood, and used. That's so important, but it hasn't been made part of the process and because of that we don't receive training. Science communication isn't very much valued, and it's usually something people will do on a volunteer basis while they're researching; it's not something that they'll get any marks for or get paid for, so there is not a lot of incentive. That is also such a shame because, for one, research is often publicly funded through government grants (from taxpayer money), so we’ve got to give it back! And two, our research affects people in the world, so we need to be communicating and asking people what THEY think, like, what is a priority for THEM for us to research? Anyways, sorry I could go on forever (laughing). It’s all part of it!
V: (laughing) That's okay! It has also made me think on the flip side, only because I know so much of how you built your brand, that what's interesting to me is that because it's actually so rare, and I know you've dealt with this backlash a lot because you do communicate excessively, that I’ve seen you get heat from people being like, “Hmm, this isn't how you communicate real science!” and like that’s SO fucked up! Do you find that sometimes your work is devalued because it's too easy to understand?
S: Yeah, I mean honestly! I have faced backlash, and I will say, by the way, that you were an incredible supporter and you helped me emotionally so much during some of the worst of those times.
V: Oh my God!
S: I don’t know if anyone listening knows, but there was a really nasty article written about me and Vanessa sent me a cookie cake (both laughing)! I was so depressed that day and then I got her cookie cake and I was like, “This is SO stupid, I love it! This is just so unnecessarily indulgent, and that is what I needed!” Anyways, so mad respect to you! But yeah, so there will always be backlash, but the thing is that there are people doing science communication, there are documentaries out there, there are people giving these talks in these auditoriums, and that's really important! But… it's really like OneNote.
We've been sharing science in very serious ways, or by only showing explosions, or for example, big cars crushing things! It’s stuff that never resonated with me...I didn’t grow up watching those shows because I was like I don't care about this explosion, I care about other stuff! So I’m trying to do things differently, to fill in the gaps that I always felt, and that’s what I encourage others to do! Don’t just do the same thing, don’t think that science communication has to be one way, or always serious, do it the way that resonates with you and the communities you're trying to reach! That way, if we can get more diverse approaches to sharing science, ways that pull people in, we're going to reach more people and that's DOPE! That is the goal!
V: Uh, yeah! So well said!
S: People will hate you for it. People will say, “ But you use selfies, and you use emojis in your descriptions!” but I’m like and I think Jay-Z said this, if you don’t like it then it is not for you!
V: Oh my God yeah! Pulling in Jay-Z!
S: (laughing) Oh, I remember! It was that “He who does not feel me, is not real to me, therefore he does not exist, so poof! Vamoose, son of a bitch!” (Jay-Z, 2001).
V: (laughing) Okay, WOW!
S: That really slaps for me, because it’s really true!
V: Well, let's move onto COVID, because I think this is what's been so amazing for me. Honestly, what's so crazy is that, you know I talk a lot about how we live in a world where many people are NOT confident and they're anxious around Math and Science right, so we already have that, but I think what's been so interesting with this pandemic is… that it's science-based! So, there's no getting around it! All of a sudden that the news is FULL of fucking math and science, so I did not see this coming. I wouldn't have even thought of this...but what you see now is this crazy narrative of misinformation, conspiracy theories, and fake news, all premised upon the fact that most people don't truly understand or feel confident around math or science! So, how do you see this playing out?
S: Yeah! I mean, I think it is important for us to realize that the one lesson we got to take away is that: Yes science is making the top headlines right now and that's something we don't usually see and that's something for us to reflect on as a society. We can't only care about science when people are literally going to die if we don't, because science does take time and it takes that time so that it can be good quality and to be truthful. So, it needs our support on an ongoing basis! We can’t decide that we only care about science in a crisis, we will always be behind if that is what we do. So that’s a big issue, and it's something we’ve got to take away. With that being said, given that science is having a moment, even if it’s for a really unfortunate reason, we have to do the most with it and we have to make sure that we're fostering trusting relationships and that we're not tarnishing people’s trust right now. But because there is so much hastiness to get information out...we're maybe not doing the best job. I think there are some amazing journalists, but there have also been some scientists trying to give their hot takes and get a soap box. There's also scientists who really do study the details, and they want that detail out there, but then that detail gets misinterpreted, and taken out of context... and research is all about context because it's so specific! What you're studying is only one small puzzle piece. I think there's just been a lot of hasty communication that hasn't necessarily been helpful or productive, and that's been a bit of a breeding ground for conspiracies and mistrust.
We’ve really got to band together and realize, you know maybe we need to delegate communicators, maybe we need to think more deeply about our strategies! It’s really hard to come up with a whole PR and communication plan in a crisis, so these are things we should have already had. But it's just really tough, we just need to be really careful, and every person who's talking about this needs to think: “Is this, even if it's one little tweet, is this a helpful tweet? Is this going to cause more confusion than help? Am I going against public guidelines, and if so, is there a good reason for me to do that? Am I really saying something important?” We all have got to think so deeply about everything, and that's not something we're used to!
V: This is LITERALLY so topical because of the Bryan Adams thing though! That’s literally what has happened! I love how you said there should be delegated communicators, like maybe Bryan Adams had that thought. It should have filtered through to his press person who could have been like: “Okay Bryan!” You know?
S: Especially because he has a press person, it's like, GIRL!
V: (laughing) I know, I know! That whole thing is MESSED up! But I just love that ...
S:(laughing) You knew!
V: Exactly, one hundred percent!
S: But at the same time though, saying only some people can communicate and not others leads to gatekeeping, and that’s not cool either! No one delegated me, you know! So if we had those rules, maybe I would be silenced. It's complicated, but we have just got to think more deeply about the way we communicate.
V: So I have a question! Okay, because I have this whole theory that might be literally premised on nothing, so I'm just going to say that right now, and this is like completely anecdotal.
S: (laughing) After I just said no one should do hot takes! But go on…
V: (laughing) But I’m ASKING though, I’m asking! Okay, so! I have this whole idea, we're talking about science communication, and obviously there's no training, but I would assume that science communication involves things like: using media that reaches people in target demographics that aren't normally reached, and using language that's accessible and whatever! I feel like people who are in charge of stuff like the Plandemic video, or the Bakersfield video, or any of the actual purposefully designed media - not just a scientist being like: “I have this idea!”
Are they actually using really good science communication techniques … but for EVIL!?
S: Oh, yes! YES!
V: Tell me about that!
S: First of all, I love that you were like: “I have this … this question!” And it ends up being such a real truth! You are modelling the behaviour we all need: extreme humility and caution before saying something spicy! THAT is what we need!
V: (both laughing) Get me a soap box!
S: But it’s true, that caution is necessary! What people have been observing is that video production is necessary. Video production is a many multibillion-dollar industry, and people know how to do it right! People who know what it will do! Think of any movie that you've watched where you’ve gotten goosebumps, they know that they are making you emotional with that slow piano - they know what they are doing! So that can be used for good and bad.
Now in science we try not to use that type of thing, which is called rhetoric, a type of manipulative and emotional communication. We're trained not to do that, we're trained to be really dry and just factual in the way that we communicate, and actually that's a fault because it means that sometimes it's dry and boring, and people aren't compelled to listen! So as communicators we try to find the happy medium. There are training programs and there is a science to communicating science… but it is not given as training to most scientists. Part of what we try to do as communicators is to try to hit that balance. How can we use storytelling, and be compelling, but still be factual and let people know about the uncertainty? But these people making these mockumentaries like Plandemic, which is not even a mockumentary, it’s BS.
(both laughing)
S: Whatever it is! They know what they’re doing, they’re reinforcing biases, and they're techniques of persuasion to a T. There's an AMAZING article by someone named Tara Haelle, and in that she talks about the different techniques being used - something called “Gish Gallop” for example (Haelle, 2020). That’s something a lot of conspirators will do, they will just throw lots of information at you really quickly… and none of it will necessarily be true! It’ll just be a lot all at once, so you’re like: “Woah! It’s overwhelming, it MUST be true!” It's really hard to debate against because it's just so much spewing. Another technique that you might have heard of is ethos, logos, and pathos.
V: I read that in that article that you shared! But tell us, this is good!
S: Yeah! They do all these things to appeal to your emotions, to appeal to the narrator. In Plandemic, they try to make Judy Mikovits be this scorned scientist who was mistreated, and they portray her as the victim; they really build that up and try to build in her credibility! They don't really have the logos part, the logic part that appeals to facts and numbers, they don't have that… but they’ll make you think they do! Using something called...it’s like the familiarity principle. Mere exposure? Oh, I'm totally forgetting the formal name! It’s the mere exposure effect or the familiarity principle! It’s where just because you see something over and over it becomes familiar, and so you start to believe is true!
V: (gasps)
S: And that's what happens with headlines! This is why clickbait is an issue, because you’ll see the clickbait titles and maybe you’ll never click on it, and at the moment when you see the clickbait title you're like: “Yeah I don't believe that!” But then you just see it over, and over again, so that later when your friend is like, “Hey I heard this…” , you’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I heard that too!” and you won't really know where it came from and you won't know how they used it. You won’t know the information behind it, but because it’s familiar it feels true! They use that to make you think that they have logic on their side. They’ll just say things that are familiar enough, but not actually accurate. Then you'll be like, “Yeah but that does sound right, that kind of makes sense with the things I know… so yeah, I GUESS it's true!” It’s VERY clever, very deceptive, very effective, and it can be really hard to dispute. They know what they're doing... so don't feel bad when people post response videos, saying that it's wrong and that they had bad intentions. I did that with the Bakersfield guys, and people were in the comments being like: You're being really unfair to them, they're just trying to help! I’m like no they’re not, they know what they're doing, and if you for one second think that they don't and that I'm some evil person who's just being mean - I think you're missing just how much effort they put into this!
V: Well what I love, because I saw your video which we'll link in the show notes, is that the Bakersfield Brothers one is so good because you basically redo their math. I love how you redo their math and explain how the numbers are manipulative! I just get so worried, because I don't know how anyone would figure this out on their own, me included!
S: It’s hard!
V: It’s so HARD! This is so cool because I feel like you're really like spilling the tea on the inside secrets people are using, but I think it’s important for people to know! I guess one question I have is, let's say you're in this discussion and someone's like, “Hey look, the Bakersfield Brothers they're just trying to help, and you're coming along and proving them wrong.” One thing we're seeing in that Plandemic video is that everyone's like, “Well it's just another perspective and everyone has a right to another perspective!” How do we deal… I feel like I'm losing a lot of friends! I can't help but get so angry, I’m always like: “Oh. My. God. I can't believe you believe this bullshit!” And I know I'm being unfair … because I think most people are innocently just trying to make sense of the information they have, and whatever way they know how. So can you give us some advice? I love what you just gave us, those techniques, but what are some other things to look for when trying to decipher between a good and a bad source, and also how do we talk to people about this? If we see a perfectly reasonable and smart friend of ours posting the Plandemic video, what CAN we do?
S: Yeah, you know, it’s really tough! At this point, and I'm so sorry I keep saying that, but this situation is just tough, and we need to start with acknowledging that all of us are struggling right now. This is not easy for anyone. This is an objectively difficult, crappy, unprecedented, and well maybe we kind of saw it coming...but this is a TOUGH, TOUGH situation. None of us expected it would have this big of a personal, emotional, medical, and economic impact! This is just WID! So we’ve just got to remember that! The same thing fuelling your anger, is fueling another person’s fear, and it is important for us to have a diversity of perspectives absolutely! It's important for us to question authority, to be free thinkers, and to consider things that might be missing from the headlines. That is always very important, and my job is never to persuade someone to change their mind; my job is to give people facts so that they're empowered to make decisions, and to let them know when they're getting played - THAT is my job!
V: I love that!
S: I really don't care about things like: take a supplement, or don't take a supplement, because that’s your own personal health...who am I to tell you what you should do with your body? That's not what I'm trying to do here. The issue is difficult when it's public health... it's not a matter of personal health, it’s a matter of EVERYONE’S health! We have to be really careful and really firm at making it clear when something is wrong and when there are really dangerous ramifications. So it's good, that when you're seeing people posting about something that's fraudulent and incorrect, that you're saying something because it needs to be opposed. There can be a bystander effect, where a lot of people are thinking the same thing as you but not actually commenting on it, or not actually calling it out, and it goes left unopposed. Then, we get that familiarity thing happening, where people keep seeing it and seeing it, and it becomes thought to be true. So it's really, REALLY, important that we are opposing these things, that we're not just being lurkers scrolling through, and that we're contributing and trying to have meaningful conversations! Now the challenge is: how do you do that effectively?
V: Yeah!
S: … and in my experience, I don't have the answer, I’m still learning this but what the research has shown us is that leading with empathy and compassion is really important. It might not be important to refute every single claim, but even being Socratic with like, “Hey have we double-checked that it's true?” I'm seeing all these things, for example, about Bill Gates and how he's given x amount of money to these people who have patented something and now they're going to make money. Actually, you can bet that there's a paper trail for all that, and you can look it up! As soon as you do you'll find a lot of inaccuracies in the claims being made there. So there are some things you can point out and be like, “Hey let's look this up together! Do we know that that's really true, and what are we really afraid of if it's true?” and I think trying to get to the source of people's uncertainty is really important! Letting them know that you share their fears in general about this situation, but that maybe they're misguided. Like, “You know, you're right! We should be a little skeptical of how the pharma industry works, but maybe this isn't the fight that we should be having. Maybe it's something else?” I think that with those little little bits of empathy, finding the common ground…that can really help!
When pointing out some of these persuasive tactics that are being used, a lot of people will try to make claims like: “Who has a financial interest? Oh, they’re just trying to make money off this vaccine!” Well, if you're going to follow the money, follow it all the way ... the Bakersfield dudes run urgent care clinics and have a direct financial incentive in recommending that lockdowns end. Someone like me, I don't make any money either way no matter what I say because I’m independent, I’m kind of screwed either way! (Both laughing)
So not to compare us, but if you're going to follow the money… follow it all the way! Who's making money off the outcome of a story? A journalist makes money for writing this story, but not necessarily on what the topic of the story is...think about things like that a little more deeply. It’s a good strategy! Who can stand to make money? Judy Mikovits right now, she just released a book and she's going to go on a speaking tour once she's allowed, you better believe it! She has a direct financial incentive for being a rogue scientist.
V: This is… okay, this is good! I actually feel like, as much as this is for our listeners, I personally just needed this pep talk! I do like that you said that it’s not your job to convince people, and I feel it's my job, for literally no reason, to convince people...but I get so mad! I think you're right, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that many people who believe some of these theories that surround public health are being like: “No! I shouldn't, or I don't, need to follow the rules because it's just like the flu!” or “This isn't a big deal or whatever!” or whatever the fuck the theories are. I guess, in a way, that I do feel personally attacked because I'm like, “You're going to ruin it for the rest of us!”
S: Of course, of course.
V: But maybe it's yeah, I think you're right - I think maybe it's more than that. I think you're right in approaching it with the attitude that we're ALL scared, this is scary for all of us…and that a lot of the need to believe these theories is out of fear, and of wanting this to be simpler than it is and of wanting a simpler answer. I think something that you say a lot on your social media channels, which I like, is that science is a conversation and it's incremental. So, anytime you hear someone say something like, “I have the answer!” or, a solution that no one's heard of… it's very unlikely that one person on the planet has thought of something that millions of scientists haven't already negotiated.
S: And debate is our job! We're cool with being told we're wrong, that's the most exciting moment! We fly to conferences (when we’re allowed) to argue with one another - we LIVE for that shit! We're not afraid of being wrong, we just want to be wrong in a way that we can all learn from, you know? There’s a difference.
V: Yeah, yeah. I have a MILLION more questions but this is technically a mini-sode, so we kind of have to wrap up. I’m going to share all of your amazing links in our show notes, but is there anything you want to say that I haven't asked you about that you're like, “Guys you need to know this one thing!”... anything you want to say?
S: Just look out for one another, be compassionate to one another, don't be afraid to call something out and let people know if something they're sharing is problematic! We ALL have social currency on social media and every like, comment, forward, save, any way you interact with any post, even just hovering on it, changes the way it's going to get exposed to the algorithm.
V: WOAH!! So true..
S: So you all have a lot of power! Right now we need grassroots movements to amplify what's going to actually help us all, and so don't feel powerless, your age doesn't matter, your number of followers doesn’t matter, everyone's input counts for something and use it as best you can! Take breaks from it when you need to as well, it's not a 24/7 job, we all need to take breaks. I take breaks as well. But know that you have the power to make some real change, and it's only going to happen through us thinking deeply about the way we use the internet, and the way we talk to one another on the internet and in person. If we work at it we can save lives here, we can do some good, and we can go forward having learned some really valuable lessons.
V: I...LOVE that! I think it's so important and I think what you said about compassion is really, really important, and doing all of what you just mentioned. So it's true, instead of attacking someone, maybe go into it with the assumption that they also are just trying to share information and they happen to believe something, but perhaps it is erroneous or comes from an unreliable source...perhaps you can help them by pointing it out with compassion instead of anger, even though that can be hard to do. So thank you, and I love that! It's true, you do all have social currency, and I’ve never even thought about the fact that literally hovering on a post can change the trajectory for where that post goes, so thanks! And.. wait! Okay! I do have to ask you one thing before you go though…will taking collagen supplements help my skin? You mentioned it in the beginning…(both laughing)
S: (laughing) I have a post about that!
V: You do?! Oh my God!
S: I have an old post about that and so does, I don’t know if you follow her, Lab Muffin Beauty Science. Her name is Michelle, she’s amazing and she has many posts about it. The short version of it is...
V: (Gasps)
S: Most of those collagen supplements are unregulated, and so you don't really know what you’re taking. It can be scary, it could also have systemic effects when you're ingesting it - it could affect things like the ways that your knees work.
V: Oh. My. God
S: We just don't know, so just be careful! Collagen does cool things in the skin, yes absolutely, but taking it systemically by eating…you might want to think twice and make sure you're really confident with the manufacturer. Personally, I don’t take it, I'm more of a topical kind of person, just putting it right on your face.
V: Oh my God...I’ve LITERALLY been taking it for 3 months straight for my hair growth and have not noticed any difference, so I don't even know what to say!
S: If people want to experiment, and they're okay with the risks, that's also cool with me! As long as you know that there are risks anytime you're putting something in your body even if it's all natural and all of that.
V: I had no clue…like, I didn’t even look into it!
S: Yeah, collagen is all over your body so, you know… anyways! Just overthinking everything, that’s me!
V: (laughing) You are literally the BEST thank you so, so, so much! Everyone go follow Sam on social media right now! I'm going to say bye to you now, and then I'm going to say a little something, so… BYE!
S: Bye, thank you for having me - you’re the best, and thank you everyone for listening! Love you!
V: Love you love you love you! K guys, I think what Sam is doing is amazing and I hope that this is like, just the BEGINNING of a world where those in possession of valuable information start feeling responsible for the way they communicate that information. I also hope that these conversations continue to shed light on WHY it is SO IMPORTANT for us to instil a sense of confidence in kids when it comes to math! Like, more mathematical confidence means less manipulation and like, better decision making in general - which is crazy important as we’re seeing right now when the science-based decisions people are making literally have the potential to SAVE LIVES...or like, not. So all that to say...we need more people like science sam in this world! Kind of wish she was my science teacher seeing as how I passed Grade 11 bio with an exact 50 and we all know what that means … and probably why I’m taking collagen supplements, fuck!! You can check out the amazing science Sam on insta at science.sam, we’ll put the link to that and the other stuff we talked about on our show notes, including that article that someone wrote about her that got bad press which ended up being GOOD press because it shone light on how awesome Science Sam is, including her debunking videos, including that Jay-Z quote, it’ll all be in our show notes which you can find at themathguru.ca/maththerapy! Remember, our first episode of Season 2 comes out June 4th...so stay TUNED AND GET PUMPED!!! Stay safe, stay sane and wash your hands byeeeee!